Working in Hungary with my LLC in the Us
I live in Hungary and have recently set up an LLC in the US. I would like to get paid through my LLC in the US rather than directly from my employer here (taxes are high here). IF I do this can I just pay taxes through my LLC in the US (on my 1040), without being liable to pay local taxes in Hungary? And if this is possible can I claim the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion on my personal income?
But if I did claim the exclusion would I then be liable to pay taxes in Hungary? I realize these are big questions, but any advice would help.
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Working in Hungary with LLC
I'd like to add my 2 cents to the discussion.
First, I assume you will qualify as a Hungarian tax resident under Hungarian domestic law and under the US/Hungary treaty on the basis that you are really living in Hungary for a lengthy period of time (a year or longer).
Re Hungarian personal income tax: if your LLC bills customers, but then retains all its earnings (e.g., in the LLC's own bank account), and does not actually pay the revenue out to you (but what will you live on?), then arguably you are not subject to Hungarian tax because you yourself have not obtained income.
But 2 caveats if the Hungarian tax office (APEH) figures out what is going on by, for example, auditing your LLC's Hungarian customers (if any) that it has billed and getting the full story out of those customers:
(1) APEH could say that your LLC is operating a business in Hungary through a "permanent establishment" (you!) and would attempt to tax the LLC's profits attributable to Hungary just as if it were a Hungarian company - Big Mess!
(2) APEH could invoke transfer pricing principles and say that you are "deemed" to receive compensation from the LLC based on the fair market value of the work you did for it.
Chances are APEH will not discover what is going on so the risk of these possibilities seems low. Also, if it makes you feel any better, I have never heard of APEH take such positions with respect to little fish.
In contrast, if the LLC actually pays out money to you, and APEH finds out, then they will say you're taxable on it. Then you get to argue with APEH about whether it is compensation (up to 40% rate) or dividends (20% tax). Messy problem!
US Taxes:
(A) Income tax: IRS treats the LLC earnings as your own (b/c LLC is disregarded) and it seems you're eligible for the foreign earned income (FEI) exclusion, so it looks like zero US income tax.
(B) Self-employment tax: interesting issue. IRS assumption is that doing business through an LLC is like a sole proprietorship, and thus SE tax applies. BUT! What if your LLC has a single foreign customer, and if you disregard the LLC, your relationship in substance with that customer looks like an employment under US tax/legal principles? Then can you say, for US purposes, that you are an employee of that foreign company? In this case, arguably no US social security or SE tax would apply. This situation, as far as I know, is totally untested, no cases, IRS rulings, etc IRS General Counsel was stumped when I asked them about this. If you were to take this position, you would simply report your LLC revenue as wages.
Good luck!
Les Edelman
www.edelmantax.com
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Thanks for chiming in!
Hey Les,
Thanks for joining the conversation and providing some great information! Hopefully this will help the OP sort things out between Hungary & the US.
Thanks again!
L:)
Working Overseas
The answer completely depends on your citizenship and residency status in the US.
If you are a US Citizen or resident alien, then you'll have to pay taxes on all income world wide. You can get an exclusion for foreign earned income up to $80,000. In order to get the exclusion you pass the "Tax Home" and the "Physical Presence" tests. Tax home test means that your principal place of business is a foreign country which is sounds like you meet. The physical presence test means that you physically reside in the foreign country for 330 days of 12 months in a row. Your travel back to the states, whether for business or pleasure, will affect this test so you have to be very careful about the number of days spent travelling.
So assuming you meet the tests, you can exclude up to $80,000 of foreign earned income. Whether or not you can avoid paying taxes in Hungary depends on the rules there. If you do have to pay Hungarian taxes you can get a credit for the taxes paid there on income you can't exclude from US income. You can't exclude income and then get a credit for foreign taxes paid on the excluded income. Kinda convoluted but it does make a certain amount of sense. :) Also, you may not get a credit for 100% of the foreign taxes paid.
Unless you can figure out a way to avoid paying Hungarian taxes I doubt your plan will yield any tax savings. Also, your tax return will be extremely complicated. Check out IRS Publication 54, Tax Guide for US Citizens and Resident Aliens Abroad.
Also, in what state is your LLC organized? You could end up paying state tax on the LLCs income even though the income is from Hungary. For instance in California, LLCs have to pay California tax on world-wide income. Check your state's rules for more information.
Good Luck!!
LLC and overseas
First, I want t to thank you very much for your response. Also your other articles and responses on your website have been very informative.
Yes, I’m a US Citizen and I can take the foreign earned income exclusion. I formed my LLC in Michigan which has no tax on it unless I make more than $350,000 a year. Which I safely don’t. With the foreign earned income exclusion and with state tax deductions I will really only owe the federal government money for the Self Employment tax. Which at 15-ish percent is fine.
I agree that it seems that I may have to pay Hungarian taxes, since I live here (physical presence test).
Now, I got this last crazy idea off the internet. If the LLC (as a disregarded entity) pays me a dividend then this may not be counted on my Hungarian taxes – since it is not earned income. Thus, if Hungary does not tax foreign unearned income, I don’t pay taxes in Hungary (I have to find this out for sure).
I know this all sounds crazy, because it is – I feel like I’ve turned into a real Hungarian, as this type of creative accounting is typical here. And I only earn around $30,000 a year. But it comes down to whether my wife (who is Hungarian) and I stay or head to a more reasonably taxed country. I’m also planning on getting an accountant to help me with this if it can be done.
But again thank you, your comments are extremely helpful!
Dividends from an LLC
Thanks, I'm glad the post was helpful! :)
The one thing to watch out for is the dividends from the LLC as a disregarded entity. In the US, this means you LLC is taxed like a sole proprietor on a Schedule C, so there are no dividends. Only corporations can do that. You will have to pay SE tax on your LLC net taxable income. (If your LLC is treated as a corporation you'll have to pay yourself a salary and pay Social Security & Medicare so you can't get out of the taxes that way.)
There is a way around paying the SE tax on foreign earned income but only if you're paying into a social security type system in another country. Unfortunately, this only applies to certain countries and Hungary isn't on the list. :( For more information take a look at the SSA Internaional Programs website.
Good Luck!
L:)
Appreciation
Again, thanks for your advice. It now has helped clarify the few things that were becoming complicated.
In the end, I have no problem what I owe in the US. As these are 'reasonable' tax amounts, and which don't add up to be an unreasonable amount. It's just this Hungarian system with over 50 percent tax that is the killer.
It seems like in the end the two different ways I can structure the LLC don't result in too much of a different outcome, for my purpose. Since my salary from the corporation would be income. I still want to keep things somewhat simple. And I don't want to get in trouble with the IRS and SS in fudging any numbers. I'm going to be talking to a Hungarian tax lawyer to see how to arrange things on this end.
Again, thanks for the advice. I'll let you know how it turns out.